THE GOVERNMENT'S NEW ANTI-PEOPLE-SMUGGLING MEASURES
24 February 2010
Sky News PM Agenda - Interviewee - Brendan O'Connor MP
DAVID SPEERS: The Government was again accused of trying to distract attention away from these insulation problems with the new security announcement. Yesterday was the counter-terrorism white paper. Today a new crackdown on people smuggling. But this is more than just a distraction; this is a new role for ASIO and other security agencies.
Under legislation introduced to parliament this morning, ASIO for the first time will be given the task of trying to target people smuggling operations. Tough new penalties also to be introduced including up to 20 years jail for people smugglers, and up to 10 years jail for those who provide material support to people smugglers.
So what does this new task really mean for ASIO and what sort of results can we expect?
I spoke earlier to the Home Affairs Minister, Brendan O'Connor.
Minister, thanks for your time. ASIO is supposed to be there to investigate threats to Australia's national security. Are you now saying people smugglers are a threat to our national security?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: What we're saying is we need to use our intelligence agencies, including ASIO, in a way that's going to provide us as much support as we need to protect our borders.
It's clear that border security does fit under the umbrella of national security and therefore there was a time when it was - the conventional thinking was that intelligence agencies dealt with mainly state to state threats. That, of course, thinking has long past, and therefore ASIO can provide a very important role in supporting law enforcement agencies in dismantling organised syndicates that relate to people smuggling. And we think they should - we think they have a role to play and that's why we're enacting the legislation.
DAVID SPEERS: But is this because people smuggling and essentially the cargo they carry - asylum seekers - do pose a threat or could potentially pose a threat to our security? Could there be terrorists among them?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well, can I say ASIO's primary responsibility will be to continue to look at those matters of course, terrorism being a very important priority.
But we need to use our agencies as effectively as possible. And this stems right back to the Prime Minister's national security statement made to the parliament in December 2008 when he said that we needed to bring together government resources, government agencies to ensure that we do better in this area.
DAVID SPEERS: I just remember Wilson Tuckey last year saying that there could be terrorists amongst the asylum seekers. And the Prime Minister leapt on that. He said he should be dumped from the Liberal Party for suggesting it. Now you're roping in ASIO to monitor people trafficking.
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: And I'm saying to you that ASIO can play a role. Its primary responsibility will be the most serious of threats. But we have to understand with the changes around the world, with globalisation, with transnational crimes emerging, we have to ensure that we use all our agencies effectively to protect ourselves.
Now, the facts are it's not just state to state threats that matter these days. Increasingly individuals and organisations pose threats, pose national security threats and we need to deal with that.
DAVID SPEERS: Because there could be terrorists amongst the asylum seekers?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well, I've just said to you that we know that ASIO plays a role in assessing security of people and persons. That will continue; there's nothing new in that. We know that ASIO can play a role in providing better information for our law enforcement agencies, the Australian Federal Police for example. And we want to make sure they're in a capacity to do that.
Now, as you know, this legislation goes to, for example, preventing people, or making it a crime to - if they seek to support in a material way people smuggling activity.
We need to ensure that we have the right tools to enable the AFP to gather the right information and pass onto the Director of Prosecutions.
DAVID SPEERS: Will ASIO be given additional resources to take on this role?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: ASIO has, for obvious reasons, grown exponentially over the last decade because of the emerging threats within our region and indeed globally.
Now, the resources of course will be something for the director of ASIO, and of course this announcement would have taken into account their priorities and their arrangements.
These decisions in terms of the operation - where the resources are dedicated primarily of course remain with ASIO.
DAVID SPEERS: So if he asks for more resource to deal with this new role, the Government will give it to him?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well, what we've said is that - as you know, we've certainly looked to strengthen a number of areas very recently. The Prime Minister announced the aviation security initiatives. We've of course announced initiatives insofar as counter-terrorism; the counter-terrorism white paper yesterday.
There are of course - if there are initiatives from any of our agencies that need to be considered, they'll be considered through the Budget process.
DAVID SPEERS: Because this isn't simply going to be a case of ASIO passing on information they pick up in the course of their normal activities. I mean, I don't know how often monitoring terrorist activity overlaps with asylum seekers. They are actually going to be doing additional work here, aren't they?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Our target here is the criminal organised syndicates that engage in people smuggling, and it's about dismantling the syndicates. So what we want to do is gather as much information as possible to ensure that we can prevent them from effectively enticing people onto vessels.
DAVID SPEERS: Which is going to require more man hours from ASIO to do that, more intelligence gathering? Which actually requires more…
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: …effectively enticing people onto vessels.
DAVID SPEERS: …more man hours from ASIO to do that. More intelligence gathering.
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well, of course, it is an important area. I think the community expect us to do more, where we can, to prevent these organised syndicates engaging in this activity.
And this is another - this is another development, I think, another response by government, to say we can use effectively our very best intelligence agencies, to gather information to prosecute people smuggling organisations and people smugglers. And that's the purpose of - the other purpose, can I just say David, is to make sure we send a very strong message to people who are seeking to provide money towards people smuggling activities, that there are very stiff penalties.
DAVID SPEERS: Well I want to talk to you about these penalties. First of all the new people smuggling offence; people smugglers facing up to 20 years jail under this bill. But are there cases where you could see people who've been involved in organising people smuggling for what - that it's justified in some cases, getting people out of a crisis situation where their lives are threatened, to a safe haven. Why should they spend up to 20 years in jail?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well can I say we are looking at targeting those people who knowingly engage in providing money for people smuggling activities. People smuggling endangers lives and we look at the balance here as to who we should be protecting. We need to firstly protect the integrity of the migration system; that we want people to seek asylum in an authorised way, through the proper processes. And we want to prevent people from being enticed onto dangerous vessels, which sometimes leads to deaths as a result.
DAVID SPEERS: And you're talking about the crew of the boats here as well? They could face up to 20 years jail.
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well, can I say we have - we've indicated - we've been prosecuting people smugglers now for some time, as you know. We've had 88 arrests and 25 convictions so far since September 2008, in our courts, and we will continue to do what we need to do, to send a strong message by jailing those that are offending our laws.
The laws here are going to those who provide support. What we've said is that those people that knowingly provide material support for people smuggling activities could be jailed for up to ten jails. So, therefore, of course circumstances will be taken into account by the courts.
DAVID SPEERS: But that could include some of these crew members who come from small Indonesian villages, impoverished. They are roped into this job oftentimes. They're the ones who could face up to 10 years jail under this [indistinct]…
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Up to 10. And currently, can I say, people smugglers have been receiving - that is those that are crew members on vessels - have been receiving between five and six years. So…
DAVID SPEERS: Okay. But a lot of times these are the pawns in the operation. I mean the king pins are people like your captain Brown in Indonesia. He's thought to have arranged smuggling of some 1500 people over the last decade, including the boat that's still sitting in the port of Merak. He's likely to get off though, in relation to that particular boat with just a fine, in the next week or two.
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: And that's why the offences for being engaged in more than one venture leads to 20 year - up to 20 years in prison for…
DAVID SPEERS: But there's no way…
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: …with a mandatory sentence. But what we need to…
DAVID SPEERS: You can't reach him though can you?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: No, but what we do - but what we need to continue to do - well what we have done recently is engage very closely with the Indonesian Government to make sure that they are dedicating resources. They've set up a people smuggling taskforce.
DAVID SPEERS: But they still haven't [indistinct] for people smuggling.
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: But they - but they - for the very first time, for a long time, they've placed on the parliamentary agenda for this year - and the Government's agenda, which hasn't happened for many a year - legislation that goes to people smuggling.
DAVID SPEERS: They haven't said when though, they're going to do that?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well they said that it's - is for this year's business. I met with them in Jakarta in December and spoke with the appropriate minister and they've said they will. And can I just add on that - in relation to that matter.
Now I met with the Deputy Minister for Home Affairs this morning, in Sydney, because there's a working group between Malaysia and Australia. They've also indicated that they'll be legislating this year, in relation to people smuggling. I mean these are two developments in areas that are transit countries. If we can have these laws enacted, it will make our job a lot easier. And again underline, it's a regional problem requiring a regional response.
DAVID SPEERS: Will these changes that you've announced today slow down the traffic of people to Australia?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well I think what it will do - in fact I know what it will do, is provide more resources to ensure we prosecute more people smugglers. We do know that the number of people seeking asylum is primarily as a result of conflicts around the world. And, indeed, there's no doubt in the Government's collective minds, that the result of the - this surge is because of the conflicts in Afghanistan that are - that have heightened over recent years and, indeed, the displacement of hundreds of thousands of people in Sri Lanka.
DAVID SPEERS: So it's going to make a difference though?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: I believe it will make a difference, but this is an ongoing challenge and a challenge for any government in office in this country, and any government in office in any first world country, that's responding to the fact that there are 42 million displaced people, of which 15 million are seen to be refugees.
DAVID SPEERS: Of course the Opposition - they're supporting this bill to toughen up the penalties for people smugglers. They say though, you're ignoring the real problem which is the magnet caused by the softer treatment of asylum seekers once they get here; the permanent refugee visas that you have and the faster processing.
Do you now acknowledge - given that we've seen some 14 boats just this year alone, it's - at a rate of roughly two a week - that there is a pull factor here; that the way that you're processing asylum seekers themselves, is encouraging them to come to Australia?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: In short, no. The facts are if we were to look at the relative border protection strengths of the Government, based on arrivals, the Howard Government is by far the weakest government in 30 years. They have the three highest years of arrivals, 1999, 2000, 2001. They had 2000 irregular arrivals in just two months at one stage. They have had 86 vessels arrived in one year, compared with 43 vessels under the Hawke/Keating entire period in office.
Now this is just an absurd proposition that the Opposition continues to put forward, that somehow the fact that there are conflicts around the world that leads to people seeking asylum has something to do with our domestic policies. Erica Fuller, the Commissioner of the UNHCR, only this week has indicated that is not a factor in this surge. This surge is something that occurs from time to time. The largest surge we've witnessed, of course, in the last 30 years, was under the Howard Government and, therefore, they know better than anyone that that's not the result of pull factors.
DAVID SPEERS: All right. Brendan O'Connor, thank you.
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Thanks very much David.
