INTERVIEW - ABC2 BREAKFAST NEWS WITH JOE O'BRIEN AND MARY GEAREN
16 October 2009
Subject: Asylum seekers
O’BRIEN: Now the 255 Sri Lankan asylum seekers aboard a boat in - moored in Western Java, say they're now on a hunger strike. They were bound for Australia when they were intercepted by the Indonesian Navy on the weekend.
GEAREN: The ethnic Tamils are refusing to leave the boat in a bid to avoid being sent to an immigration centre.
On shore, Indonesian authorities are surveying local guest houses and hotels, as an option, to accommodate them.
For more, we're joined by the Home Affairs Minister Brendan O’Connor.
Thank you very much for joining us.
O’CONNOR: Not a problem. Happy to be here.
GEAREN: We've got a hunger strike on that boat now. The Indonesian authorities are struggling to find places to put these people in any case. It's becoming critical. How much longer can Australia not intervene in this situation which, after all, it brought Indonesia into?
O’CONNOR: This is a global problem and it requires a global response. We've been working very closely with the Indonesians, Malaysians and others in this region to ensure that we tackle people smuggling. It's a vile trade and we have to work very closely with our neighbours to ensure that we prosecute people smugglers and we prevent people getting on dangerous vessels, for perilous journeys, on an empty promise.
GEAREN: But in this situation right now, how is this situation going to be resolved and what's Australia going to do about it?
O’CONNOR: Well can I say the Australian Government appreciates the efforts by the Indonesians to work with us, to tackle people smuggling. What we cannot do is send the message to say that it's tolerable to have people, have their life savings stolen by people smugglers, have them placed on vessels in dangerous situations.
I mean this is actually not acceptable to the Rudd Government. It's not acceptable to governments within the region and that's why we work very closely with those governments to ensure we tackle people smuggling and we smash the syndicates.
GEAREN: But if we can just go to this particular situation, what is Australia going to do…
O’CONNOR: Well it's entirely - it's entirely proper that the Indonesian authorities, the Indonesian Government deal with the matter that's in Indonesia. But we understand - we understand that this is a global problem and it's a regional problem. It requires responses at regional and a global level.
O’BRIEN: We'll just take a moment now to listen to one of the young asylum seekers. The Prime Minister was asked about this yesterday, but he said he had not heard the plea. But let's take a listen to what one of these young asylum seekers said yesterday.
[Start of excerpt]
BRINDHA: Please [crying] please, all Sri Lankan refugees, we have lived in forest for one month. Please sir, please take us to a country. It's okay if it is not Australia. It's better if any other country takes us, we can't live in Sri Lanka, so please.
[End of excerpt]
O’BRIEN: Now the Australian Government and Australia turned that girl away. Why did we?
O’CONNOR: We have millions of people displaced around the world. There are 42 million people displaced across - around the world, 15 million of which, according to the UNHCR assessed to be refugees. We take our fair share. We have a humanitarian program…
O’BRIEN: And she's not part of that fair share?
O’CONNOR: You continue to talk about we did. The Indonesian authorities made very clear that they do not support the people smuggling approach, and for that reason they intercepted the vessel five days ago...
O’BRIEN: But Kevin Rudd made the call to ask for the interception.
O’CONNOR: Well can I just say to you again, the Indonesians in response to those claims, have said they do not support - they do not condone people smuggling and they've intercepted that vessel.
Now this is a regional problem. We have been supporting the Indonesians. We certainly work very closely with the Indonesian National Police. The Australian Federal Police have been working with them very closely to prosecute people smugglers, because we know these vessels, these journeys occur because there are organised syndicates willing to exploit these people, take their life savings, place them on vessels that are dangerous, some of which don't make it anywhere. In fact, you know, we know of drownings that occur at sea.
This is not something we can continue to…
O’BRIEN: But these are people who are…
O’CONNOR: accept.
O’BRIEN: but these are people who are - who go - adopt this approach because they're desperate.
O’CONNOR: And can I say this is exactly the point I'm making. Of course, there are desperate people. There are millions of people displaced.
Now, what we do know, as a result of the most violent year in Afghanistan since the war began wi… last year, there's been an increase in people seeking haven to First World countries. Of course, that's the case too in Sri Lanka where we've had a long and bloody civil war which has, of course, meant that people are seeking haven. Most of which, by the way, go to Europe and to North America, but some seek to come here.
GEAREN: But that is to assume that they have got access. And we've heard from refugee advocates who say there are hundreds of thousands of Tamils who are in camps that don't have - that the UN can't get access to.
Now, in those cases where they can't actually pursue legitimate means to get out of their country and to sit on those lists that we consider to be legitimate, doesn't Australia have the capacity in those circumstances to have any compassionate exceptions?
O’CONNOR: Of course, we have a - as the Prime Minister's made clear, we - we're very hard line on people smugglers, but we will take a humane approach.
Now, we do have a humanitarian program which provides for people that - to be settled in this country. But we cannot support a process which is unlawful and exploits people. We cannot support people smugglers who - which are clearly taking the life savings of people, placing them in danger. This is not something that can be tolerated by any government. And for that reason, we'll continue to dedicate our resources in Indonesia, in collaboration with the Indonesian National Police, in Sri Lanka, Malaysia and other countries to prosecute the people smugglers and prevent this process happening.
We, of course, will always look at what we can do on humanitarian grounds. But, you know, there - this is a global problem needing a global response, and we do our fair share in that regard.
O’BRIEN: Now, there's this ongoing debate about the push and pull factors. Our correspondent in Indonesia, Jeff Thompson(*), interviewed an asylum seeker back in April, and this asylum seeker said, Kevin Rudd, he change everything about refugee. If I go to Australia now, different, different. Maybe accepted. But when John Howard President[sic] of Australia, he said, come back to Indonesia.
Now, you can't deny that a more humane approach is attracting more people to Australia.
O’CONNOR: In relation to what people may have said about why they get on vessels, that just underlines what people smugglers will say to them. I can assure you - for example - I mean, if you want to look at the way these things occur, people smugglers will say or do anything to entice people to give them their life savings to get on vessels. So I don't think we can take much stock in what a person may have been told, but can I say this to you, that…
O’BRIEN: This is…
O’CONNOR: Can I say this to you, there i…
O’BRIEN: coming from an asylum seeker's mouth.
O’CONNOR: Yeah. That has been told to him by people smugglers. Can I say to you, they will say or do anything to entice people to get on these vessels.
This is a vile trade where, of course, there are significant amounts of money being made by people smugglers, and they will say or do anything to entice people to get on these vessels.
GEAREN: But what can Australia do to help people who may not have access to legitimate means to leave their situations?
O’CONNOR: We will continue to work with the International Organization on Migration, UNHCR to do our fair share. But we will not tolerate unlawful behaviour, and we'll not support a process which allows people smugglers, organised criminal syndicates to exploit people, and that's what, I think, is clear here. We need to ensure that we do everything we can to prosecute the smugglers and jail them, quite frankly, because they are exploiting, as you've said, desperate people.
Now, in relation to the debate, I mean, the Opposition has - we would like to have a policy debate with the Opposition, but, of course, they're too busy debating themselves. They have no policy and, indeed, they might want to continue to make comment on this matter, but they have not one policy in relation to immigration…
O’BRIEN: So we…
O’CONNOR: for people smuggling.
O’BRIEN: We've heard reports in the last couple of days that there are six more boats headed for Australia, that Australian authorities are tracking. Can you give us any idea if you know anything about that?
O’CONNOR: Well look, we're, of course, provided intelligence and all sorts of advice on operational matters, but I cannot talk about those matters for obvious reasons. What I can say though, is the Rudd Government has dedicated more resources on maritime surveillance and aerial surveillance than ever before. That's why we've successfully intercepted vessels.
We've also dedicated resources in Indonesia and in Sri Lanka, increased our resources in Sri Lanka, so that we can work with those law enforcement agencies to prosecute these people smugglers.
That's a priority of this government and we'll continue to do that until these organised syndicates have been dismantled.
GEAREN: Brendan O'Connor, thank you very much for joining us.
O’CONNOR: Thank you very much.
O’BRIEN: Thanks Minister.
O’CONNOR: Thank you.
