Transcript
The Hon Bob Debus MP
Minister for Home Affairs
Identity Crime
2UE
The Paul and George Show
29 March 2008
Moore and Kidd speak with Bob Debus, Federal Minister for Home Affairs who says identity theft with the spread of the internet and electronic business have raised new crimes for the supply or using identification information.
Interviewees: Bob Debus, Federal Minister for Home Affairs
GEORGE MOORE :
Now, according to the Minister for Home Affairs, Bob Debus, identity crime - that's people stealing other people's identity by getting your old bills and things and putting together enough information so they can go somewhere else, pretend to be you and you get left with the bill - it's become such a problem with the internet and with other things as well, that they are changing the laws to make identity theft an actual crime.
Minister Bob Debus, Minister for Home Affairs, joins us for a chat. Morning, Bob. Good to talk to you again. How are you?
BOB DEBUS:
Yes, and I'm glad to be back on.
PAUL B KIDD:
Good on you, Bob.
GEORGE MOORE :
Okay. Now identity theft, would you give our listeners, for a start, I guess a definition of what it is? In 2008 what do you mean by identity theft?
BOB DEBUS:
Well of course some sorts of identity theft or crime have been around forever: forgery and fraud. But what's happening now is that with the spread of the use of the internet and with such an enormous expansion in the amount of electronic business that's done, there are new forms of so-called identity crime occurring. And the most obvious ones are people assuming false identities or fictitious identities to get access to other people's bank accounts.
And what we've worked out is, is that we need to have new sorts of crimes which cover - cover the whole possible field in an activity of this nature. So we're going to have crimes that, for instance, involving the making and supplying or using identification information with the intention of committing an offence. That's sounds a bit complicated but that's not the same as saying you committed a fraud or a forgery, it's saying that you were getting together the means of taking somebody else's identity to commit a crime.
PAUL B KIDD:
Now we're all aware that we buy things over the internet, some people just point blank refuse to do them, but there are certain things that you just simply don't do when you're doing business with someone new. For instance giving them more information than they need and answering bodgy questionnaires and things like that, is that right, Bob?
BOB DEBUS:
Exactly so. And there's a practice which is known as 'phishing' where people invite unsuspecting or innocent citizens using the internet in some way or other to just simply give out all their information, all their personal information, just supply it at the drop of a hat. And once that's been supplied these criminals can then make a false identity and, for instance, suck all the money out of your bank account [indistinct].
GEORGE MOORE :
Yeah, I actually got one this week, a bloke wanted to know whether I was trustworthy enough to share $20 million and we'd invest it together and he just needed my account number. I decided to decline the offer.
Now this is not just the internet, Bob, because we talked about this before Christmas and one of the things I talked about for a million years and never got round to doing it but I've done it now, bought a shredder. And they're saying that things like your gas bill, your electricity bill, your phone bill, all these things have got information on them that people who want to steal your identity can use.
BOB DEBUS:
Yes, it's true that clever manipulation of information of that sort can sometimes allow a criminal to access an account or to in some way or other steal some part of your personal identity in order that they may, you know, carry out a transaction which will mean gain to them.
The thing about identity crime is that it's really largely to affect your own reputation and livelihood.
PAUL B KIDD:
Now what can a person do...
GEORGE MOORE :
Exactly.
PAUL B KIDD:
...like somebody, the police or somebody have come along, or a credit card company and have said you've run up all these debts, you've done this, you've spent this money, you owe us the money. And you say it wasn't me. I mean, what can you do?
BOB DEBUS:
Well sometimes of course you can, by common sense and the production of particular information, persuade a financial organisation that you have been, like them, a victim of a crime. But this new legislation is going to do something that I think is pretty useful. It's going to also allow a victim of identity theft, however it may have occurred, to go to a magistrate's court, explain the situation and actually have the magistrate issue a document which acknowledges that this person has been a victim.
So that instead of waiting years and years, for instance, to re-establish your credit rating, you could in fact go through this relatively simple court proceeding and get a certificate which allows you in a sense to reclaim your identity.
GEORGE MOORE :
But you'd have to be able to prove, wouldn't you, to the magistrate that indeed it was somebody else who did this in your name?
BOB DEBUS:
Yes, you would. But that's not necessarily difficult. It always depends on the circumstances but people, by this method, can, as it were, re-establish their true credit history...
PAUL B KIDD:
Yeah, I think...
BOB DEBUS:
...[indistinct] but it's better than nothing.
GEORGE MOORE :
Oh, absolutely...
PAUL B KIDD:
In some cases people would be perfectly happy to lose the thousand or fifteen-hundred dollars, or whatever, that they've been ripped off just to be able to clear...
GEORGE MOORE :
Clear the decks...
PAUL B KIDD:
...clear the decks and get their identity back and be able to establish their credit rating again. Because that is the worst thing that can happen to you, isn't it?
BOB DEBUS:
Exactly so. It is and, as I say, fraud and forgery have been around for many centuries but we are these days, because of the new technology that we all live with, facing a quite heightened level of risk. And, you know, it's a reminder for everyone, isn't it, they just ought to be careful about [indistinct]...
PAUL B KIDD:
Oh absolutely...
BOB DEBUS:
...their details around.
GEORGE MOORE :
We've been saying it for, well, since Christmas now, get yourself a shredder and, incidentally, if you sit down, pour yourself a glass of wine and start shredding documents it's quite fun [laughs]. You know, you might enjoy yourself [laughs].
What will this new crime be actually called?
BOB DEBUS:
Well we call it in an overall generic way identity crime. But when you look - if you look up the Crimes Act, which I'm sure you guys do every day...
GEORGE MOORE :
Sure [laughs]...
BOB DEBUS:
...you'll see that - you'll find that when the laws are passed it will say it is an offence punishable by a prison sentence of up to five years to make, supply or use identification information with the intention of committing an indictable offence. Or it is an offence punishable by a prison sentence of up to three years to possess equipment capable of being used to make false identification information.
There's a whole range of stuff that might be used but that includes, for instance, making - making false credit cards.
GEORGE MOORE :
All right. Well done...
PAUL B KIDD:
Yes, and quite often it can happen, too, even if you aren't careless. I've heard the cases of people...
GEORGE MOORE :
Oh, absolutely.
PAUL B KIDD:
...who have just bought something over the internet, quite legit from a large company, and then next thing you know they're having money drawn out of their bank account by someone they've never heard of.
GEORGE MOORE :
Yeah, you do have to be careful. Listen, Bob...
BOB DEBUS:
Yes, you do have to be careful. And of course the banks have got programs which try to guard against that kind of activity, it's not as if nobody is trying to defend citizens against this - these sorts of crimes, but they still exist.
GEORGE MOORE :
Yeah, I must say, too, I've had a couple of problems with this over the years and both times the banks have been quite accommodating and very good about it. So they're obviously onto it in a big way as well.
BOB DEBUS:
Yes.
GEORGE MOORE :
Bob, thank you very much...
PAUL B KIDD:
Good on you, Bob.
GEORGE MOORE :
...for your time this morning. Glad to hear all this and thank you very much.
BOB DEBUS:
Thanks to both of you. Bye.
GEORGE MOORE :
Thanks a lot, bye bye.